Questions and Replies with Li Weigong — The Upper Book唐李問對 卷上

Taizong said, "Goguryeo has invaded Silla again and again. I sent an envoy to admonish them, but they did not receive the edict. I mean to punish them. What of it?" Li Jing said, "By what I have found out, Gaesomun trusts that he knows the art of war himself and holds that China is not able to punish him, and so he has defied the command. I ask for thirty thousand men, and I will take him." Taizong said, "The men are few and the land is far. By what art will you meet him?" Li Jing said, "I will do it with orthodox troops." Taizong said, "When the Tujue were put down you used unorthodox troops. Now you say orthodox troops. Why is that?" Li Jing said, "When Zhuge Liang took Meng Huo seven times, there was no other way. It was orthodox troops and nothing more." Taizong said, "When Ma Long of Jin planned for Liangzhou, he too followed the Chart of the Eight Formations and made the side-box chariot. Where the ground was broad he made his camp with antler chariots; where the road was narrow he set a wooden house upon the chariot and fought as he went forward. Truly the orthodox troops were held weighty by the men of old." Li Jing said, "When I punished the Tujue, I went west several thousand li. If it had not been for orthodox troops, how could I have reached so far? The side-box and the antler are the great essentials of an army. One governs strength, one blocks the front, one binds the ranks. The three are used by turns, one after another, and in this Ma Long got the old law deeply."

Taizong said, "When I broke Song Laosheng, at the first clash of arms the righteous host fell back a little. I myself led the mailed horsemen down from the southern ridge and struck him across the flank. Laosheng's men were cut off from the rear and broke to pieces, and at last he was taken. Was this orthodox troops, or unorthodox?" Li Jing said, "Your Majesty's holy valor is granted by Heaven; it is not a thing learned. When I look into the art of war, from the Yellow Emperor onward it has put the orthodox first and the unorthodox after, humanity and right first and cunning after. At Huoyi, that the host was raised in righteousness was the orthodox; that Jiancheng fell from his horse and the right army fell back a little was the unorthodox." Taizong said, "At that time the falling back all but ruined the great work. How do you call it unorthodox?" Li Jing said, "In all armies, facing forward is taken for the orthodox and falling back for the unorthodox. Besides, if the right army had not fallen back, how would Laosheng have been drawn out? The law says, 'Lure him with advantage, take him in his disorder.' Laosheng did not know the art of war. He trusted his courage and pressed on in haste, and never thought that his rear would be cut off, and he was taken by Your Majesty. This is what is called making the unorthodox into the orthodox." Taizong said, "It was said that Huo Qubing accorded with Sun and Wu of himself. Truly there is such a thing. When the right army fell back, Gaozu lost his color; and when I struck out, it turned instead to our advantage. Your word, that he accorded with Sun and Wu of himself, is truly right." Taizong said, "Can every falling back of an army be called unorthodox?" Li Jing said, "It is not so. When an army falls back and the flags are ragged and not even, the drums are loud and soft and do not answer one another, the orders are noisy and not one — this is truly falling back in defeat, and not the unorthodox. But if the flags are even and the drums answer and the orders are as one, then though all looks tangled and confused, and though they withdraw and run, it is not defeat; there is surely something unorthodox in it. The law says, 'Do not pursue a feigned flight.' It says again, 'When able, show yourself unable.' Both speak of the unorthodox." Taizong said, "At the battle of Huoyi, was the right army's falling back Heaven's doing? Was Laosheng's being taken man's doing?" Li Jing said, "If the orthodox troops had not changed into unorthodox and the unorthodox troops into orthodox, how could the victory have been won? Therefore for one who uses troops well the unorthodox and the orthodox lie in man alone. To change them and make them wondrous is why it is ascribed to Heaven." Taizong bowed his head.

Taizong said, "Are the unorthodox and the orthodox divided beforehand, or are they made at the moment?" Li Jing said, "In Lord Cao's Xin shu it says, 'If I am two and the enemy one, then one part is orthodox and one part unorthodox; if I am five and the enemy one, then three parts are orthodox and two unorthodox.' This says the rough of it, no more. Only Sun Wu said, 'The shapes of battle go no further than the unorthodox and the orthodox, but the changes of the unorthodox and the orthodox can never be exhausted. The unorthodox and the orthodox give birth to one another like a ring that has no end. Who can exhaust them?' This is the man who has it. How should there be a dividing beforehand? If the officers and men have not learned my method and the lesser commanders are not used to my orders, then I must make the two parts for them. When battle is taught, each learns his flag and his drum, and by turns they divide and join. Therefore it is said, dividing and joining make the change. This is only the art of teaching battle. When the teaching and the review are done and the host knows my method, then they are like a flock of sheep driven where the general points, and who divides the unorthodox from the orthodox? What Sun Wu called 'showing the other a shape while I have no shape' is the utmost of the unorthodox and the orthodox. So what is divided beforehand is the teaching and the review; what is changed at the moment can never be exhausted." Taizong said, "Deep, deep! Lord Cao must have known it. Only, the Xin shu was meant to be given to the generals, and it is not the root law of the unorthodox and the orthodox."

Taizong said, "Lord Cao said, 'Unorthodox troops strike from the side.' What do you say to it?" Li Jing said, "When I look at Lord Cao's notes on the Sunzi, it says, 'Those who go out first and join battle are the orthodox; those who go out after are the unorthodox.' This differs from being bound to striking from the side. In my foolish thought, what the great host joins is the orthodox, and what the general sends out of himself is the unorthodox. How should there be a binding to first and after, or to striking from the side?" Taizong said, "To make the enemy see my orthodox as unorthodox, and my unorthodox as orthodox — is this what is called 'showing the other a shape'? To make the unorthodox orthodox and the orthodox unorthodox, so that the changes cannot be reckoned — is this what is called 'having no shape'?" Li Jing bowed twice and said, "Your Majesty is holy and wise, far beyond the men of old. It is not for me to reach it."

Taizong said, "If dividing and joining make the change, where are the unorthodox and the orthodox?" Li Jing said, "For one who uses troops well there is nothing that is not orthodox and nothing that is not unorthodox, and so the enemy cannot reckon him. Therefore he wins by the orthodox and he wins by the unorthodox. The men of the three armies know only that they have won; they do not know how they won. Who but one who can change and pass through could come to this? The going out of dividing and joining, only Sun Wu could do; from Wu Qi down, none could reach it." Taizong said, "What is the art of Wu?" Li Jing said, "Let me speak of it in brief. Marquis Wu of Wei asked Wu Qi about two armies facing one another, and Wu Qi said, 'Let the low and brave strike in front, and when the blades first meet, let them run; and when they run, do not punish them. Watch how the enemy goes forward to take his advantage. If he sits at one time and rises at another and does not pursue those who run, then the enemy has a plan. But if he pursues the runners with his whole host, and his going and halting are all awry, then the enemy has no talent. Strike him and do not doubt.' I say the art of Wu is mostly of this kind, and it is not what Sun Wu called joining with the orthodox."

Taizong said, "Your mother's brother Han Qinhu once said that you were fit to discuss Sun and Wu with. Did he too speak of the unorthodox and the orthodox?" Li Jing said, "How should Qinhu have known the utmost of the unorthodox and the orthodox? He only took the unorthodox for unorthodox and the orthodox for orthodox. He never knew how the unorthodox and the orthodox change into one another and turn about without end." Taizong said, "When the men of old came to the battle line and sent out the unorthodox, striking where men did not look for it — was this too the law of changing into one another?" Li Jing said, "The battles of former ages were mostly a small art beating no art at all, a scrap of good beating no good at all. How is that enough for discussing the art of war? When Xie Xuan broke Fu Jian, it was not that Xie Xuan did well; it was that Fu Jian did badly." Taizong looked round at his attendants, called for the Life of Xie Xuan, read it, and said, "Where was it that Fu Jian did badly?" Li Jing said, "I have looked at the Record of Fu Jian, and it says, 'All the armies of Qin broke and fled; only the one army of Murong Chui was whole. Jian went to him with a thousand and more horsemen. Chui's son Bao urged his father to kill Jian, but it came to nothing.' From this one may see that while the army of Qin was in confusion Murong Chui alone was whole, and it is clear that Jian had been drawn into a pit by Chui. To be drawn into a pit by another and still wish to beat the enemy — is that not hard? So I said he had no art, and Fu Jian is of that kind." Taizong said, "The Sunzi says, 'Many reckonings beat few reckonings.' From this one knows that few reckonings beat no reckonings. It is so in all things."

Taizong said, "The art of war of the Yellow Emperor is handed down in the world as the Wo qi wen (握奇文), and some call it the Wo ji wen (握機文). What does it mean?" Li Jing said, "The sound of qi (奇) is ji (機), and so some hand it down as ji (機); the meaning is one. If we look into the text, it says, 'Four are orthodox, four are unorthodox, and the odd remainder is the wo ji (握機).' Qi (奇) is the odd remainder, and for this reason its sound is ji (機). In my foolish thought, there is nothing in an army that is not the working of the trigger, so what is there to speak of as holding (握)? It should be taken as the odd remainder (餘奇), and that is right. Orthodox troops are received from the ruler; unorthodox troops the general sends out of himself. The law says, 'When orders are carried out in ordinary times and the people are taught by them, the people obey.' This is what is received from the ruler. It says again, 'An army does not speak beforehand, and there are commands of the ruler that are not received.' This is what the general sends out of himself. A general who has the orthodox and no unorthodox is a general for holding ground; one who has the unorthodox and no orthodox is a general for fighting; one who has both the unorthodox and the orthodox is the support of the state. Therefore wo ji and wo qi are not two laws at root. It lies only in the learner's knowing both together."

Taizong said, "The formations are nine in number, and the empty place in the middle the great general holds. The four sides and the eight directions all take their measure from it. Formation holds formation within, and company holds company within. The front is made the rear and the rear the front. It advances without running fast and withdraws without fleeing in haste. Four heads and eight tails, and wherever it is struck becomes the head; when the enemy charges into the middle, both heads come to the rescue. The number rises from five and ends at eight. What does this mean?" Li Jing said, "Zhuge Liang set stones across and along in eight rows, and the law of the square formation is this very chart. When I taught and reviewed the troops, I always put this formation first. The Wo ji wen handed down in the world has got the rough of it."

Taizong said, "Heaven, earth, wind, cloud, dragon, tiger, bird, snake — what do these eight formations mean?" Li Jing said, "Those who handed them down were wrong. The men of old kept this law hidden, and so they set up eight names falsely, that is all. The eight formations are one at root, and are divided into eight. Heaven and earth come from the names of the flags; wind and cloud come from the names of the pennants; dragon, tiger, bird and snake come from the divisions of the ranks. Later ages handed them down wrongly and set up false images of things, and why should it stop at eight?" Taizong said, "If the number rises from five and ends at eight, then they are not set-up images but truly an old institution. Try to set it forth." Li Jing said, "As I look into it, the Yellow Emperor first set up the law of the hamlet and the well, and by it ordered his troops. The well was divided by four roads, and eight households dwelt in it; its shape is the character jing (井), and opening it out square gives nine. Five are the law of formation and four are the ground between; this is what is called rising from five. The middle is left empty for the great general to dwell in, and round the four sides the several divisions link and wind about; this is what is called ending at eight. When it comes to changing and mastering the enemy, then 'tangled and confused, the fighting is in disorder but the law is not in disorder; turbid and shapeless, the form is round but the force is not scattered.' This is what is called scattering to make eight and returning to be one." Taizong said, "Deep is the Yellow Emperor's ordering of troops! Though later ages had wisdom like Heaven's and divine plans, none could pass beyond his threshold. Below this, who is there that carried it on?" Li Jing said, "When Zhou first arose, it was Taigong who truly put that law in order. He began at the old capital at Qishan and set up the well fields; with three hundred war chariots and three hundred tiger guards he set up the army system; with six steps and seven steps, six strokes and seven strokes, he taught the law of battle. He drew up the host at Muye, and with a hundred men Taigong offered battle and so achieved the martial work: with forty-five thousand men he beat the seven hundred thousand of King Zhou of Shang. The Methods of the Sima of Zhou is rooted in Taigong. After Taigong died, the men of Qi got the law he left. When Duke Huan became overlord of all under Heaven, he gave charge to Guan Zhong, who put Taigong's law in order again; they called it the host of measure and restraint, and the feudal lords all submitted." Taizong said, "The Confucians mostly say that Guan Zhong was no more than a minister of an overlord, and they do not know at all that the art of war is rooted in the institutions of the kings. Zhuge Liang had the talent to assist a king, and he likened himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi; from this one knows that Guan Zhong too was a man to assist a king. Only, in the decline of Zhou the king could not use him, and so he borrowed the state of Qi and raised an army." Li Jing bowed twice and said, "Your Majesty is holy and wise, and knows men like this. Though I am old and die, I need not be ashamed before the worthies of old. Let me speak of Guan Zhong's ordering of Qi. He divided the state of Qi in three and made of it three armies. Five households make a gui (軌), and so five men make a file of five; ten gui make a li (里), and so fifty men make a xiaorong; four li make a lian (連), and so two hundred men make a zu; ten lian make a xiang (鄉), and so two thousand men make a lü; five xiang have one shuai (帥), and so ten thousand men make an army. This too follows the sense of the Methods of the Sima, 'one shuai has five lü, one lü has five zu.' In truth all of it got the law that Taigong left."

Taizong said, "Men say the Methods of the Sima was set down by Rangju. Is it so, or not?" Li Jing said, "Looking at the Life of Rangju in the Shi ji: in the time of Duke Jing of Qi, Rangju used troops well and broke the armies of Yan and Jin, and Duke Jing raised him to the office of sima. From this he was called Sima Rangju, and his sons and grandsons were styled the Sima clan. When King Wei of Qi came, he traced out the old Methods of the Sima and set down also what Rangju had learned, and so there came to be the Book of Sima Rangju in several tens of chapters. What is handed down in the world today as the schools of the military writers is again divided into four kinds, stratagem, disposition, yin and yang, and craft, and all of them came out of the Methods of the Sima." Taizong said, "Zhang Liang and Han Xin of Han put the arts of war in order: out of a hundred and eighty-two schools they cut away and took what was needed and fixed thirty-five schools. Today the handing down of them is lost. Why is that?" Li Jing said, "What Zhang Liang learned was Taigong's Six Secret Teachings and the Three Strategies; what Han Xin learned was Rangju and Sun Wu. Yet in the main they do not go beyond the three gates and the four kinds." Taizong said, "What are called the three gates?" Li Jing said, "As I look into it, Taigong's Mou in eighty-one chapters is what is called hidden planning, and cannot be exhausted in words; Taigong's Yan in seventy-one chapters cannot be exhausted by arms; Taigong's Bing in eighty-five chapters cannot be exhausted by wealth. These are the three gates." Taizong said, "What are called the four kinds?" Li Jing said, "They are what Ren Hong of Han set out. Of the schools of the military writers, stratagem is one kind, disposition is one kind, and yin and yang and craft are two kinds. These are the four kinds."

Taizong said, "The Methods of the Sima sets forth the hunts, the sou and the shou (狩), at its head. Why is that?" Li Jing said, "It follows their season and gathers them up under the divine, and so makes the matter weighty. In the Rites of Zhou it is the greatest of governings. King Cheng had the hunt at Qiyang, King Kang the court at the Feng Palace, King Mu the meeting at Tushan; these are the affairs of the Son of Heaven. When Zhou declined, Duke Huan of Qi had the host at Zhaoling and Duke Wen of Jin the covenant at Jiantu; these are the feudal lords carrying out the affairs of the Son of Heaven. In truth they used the law of the nine punishments to overawe the irreverent, borrowing the court gatherings and following the royal progresses to train them in arms and armor. It is to say that when there was nothing afoot they did not raise troops lightly, but did it always in the farmers' idle season, and did not forget their readiness for war. So is it not deep, that the hunts stand at the head?"

Taizong said, "In the Spring and Autumn, the law of the two guang of the Viscount of Chu says, 'The hundred officers move by the images of things, and the governing of the army is ready without warning.' Did this too get the institutions of Zhou?" Li Jing said, "By the account of Zuo: the guang that the Viscount of Chu rode were thirty chariots; a guang had one zu, and a zu was the liang (兩) of a pian. When the army marched it kept to the right shaft, taking the shaft for its rule, and so they fought holding the shaft close. All of this is the institution of Zhou. I take a hundred men to be a zu and fifty men a liang; this is a hundred and fifty men used for each single chariot, a little more than the institution of Zhou, that is all. In Zhou, one chariot had seventy-two foot soldiers and three armored men. Twenty-five men made one jia, and three jia in all made seventy-five men. Chu is a land of hills and marshes; its chariots are few and its men many, and if they are divided into three companies it is the same as the institution of Zhou."

Taizong said, "In the Spring and Autumn, when Xun Wu attacked the Di he broke up his chariots and made foot ranks. Was this orthodox troops, or unorthodox?" Li Jing said, "Xun Wu was using the law of the chariot, that is all. Though he put the chariots aside, the law was within it. One is the left horn, one the right horn, one the front block, divided into three companies; this is the law of one chariot, and it is so for a thousand or ten thousand chariots. I look at Lord Cao's Xin shu, which says, 'The attack chariot has seventy-five men: one company for the front block and two companies for the left and right horns. The baggage chariot has one company: ten who cook, five who guard the gear, five who keep the stable, five who gather wood and draw water, twenty-five in all. The two chariots, attack and baggage, are a hundred men in all. To raise an army of a hundred thousand is to use a thousand chariots, and light and heavy, two thousand.' This is in the main the old law of Sun and Wu. Look again at the army system between Han and Wei: five chariots made a company with one puye; ten chariots made a shi with one shuaizhang; for a thousand chariots there were two commanding officers. Most of it took after this. If I take the law of today and use it together with theirs, then the tiaodang are cavalry; the battle-van company is half foot and half cavalry; the standing company goes out with the chariots as well. When I punished the Tujue in the west and crossed rough country for several thousand li, I never dared to change this system. Truly the measure and restraint of the old law is to be held weighty."

Taizong went to Lingzhou, and on his return he called Li Jing, gave him a seat, and said, "I commanded Daozong and Ashina She'er and the rest to punish the Xueyantuo, and the several tribes of the Tiele asked that Han officials (漢官) be set over them, and I granted all their asking. The Yantuo fled west, and fearing they would be a trouble later I sent Li Ji to punish them. Now the wild lands are all settled, but in the several tribes the tribal people and the Han dwell mixed together. By what way can it be kept long, so that both are whole and at peace?" Li Jing said, "Your Majesty has set sixty-six post stations from the Tujue to the tribes of the Huihe so that the scouts may pass through, and in this you have already got a good plan. Yet in my foolish thought the Han garrisons should have a law of their own and the tribal settlements a law of their own, their teaching and their drill each different, and they should not be mixed together. And if raiders come, then send a secret command to the chief general to change the calls and change the dress at the moment, and send out unorthodox troops and strike." Taizong said, "What way is this?" Li Jing said, "This is the art called 'leading him astray by many devices.' Show the tribal as Han and the Han as tribal, and they will not know the difference between tribal and Han, and so they can never reckon our plan of attack or defense. One who uses troops well first makes himself past reckoning, and then the enemy goes astray from where he means to go." Taizong said, "This falls in exactly with my mind. Teach the border generals secretly. With just this, the tribal and the Han, one may see the law of the unorthodox and the orthodox." Li Jing bowed twice and said, "Your Majesty's thought is granted by Heaven: you hear one and know ten. How could I ever exhaust the saying of it?"

Taizong said, "Zhuge Liang said, 'An army that has system cannot be beaten though its general is without ability; an army without system cannot be made to win though its general has ability.' I doubt that this saying is the utmost word." Li Jing said, "The Marquis Wu said it in heat, that is all. I look at the Sunzi, which says, 'When the way of teaching is not clear, when officers and men have nothing fixed, when the troops are drawn up all awry, this is called disorder.' From of old, armies in disorder that drew victory to the enemy cannot all be written down. 'The way of teaching is not clear' means that there is no old law in the teaching and the review; 'officers and men have nothing fixed' means that the power and charge of the commanders have no lasting office; 'an army in disorder draws victory' means that they broke and were beaten of themselves, and the enemy did not beat them. So the Marquis Wu said that if the soldiers have system even a dull general is not beaten, and if the soldiers fall into disorder of themselves even a worthy general is in danger. What is there to doubt?" Taizong said, "The law of teaching and review truly cannot be slighted." Li Jing said, "If the teaching gets its way, the men are glad to be used; if the teaching does not get the law, then though you oversee them at dawn and scold them at dusk it is of no help to the matter. This is why I have given all my small care to the old institutions and gathered them into charts: in the hope of making an army that has system." Taizong said, "Choose out for me the formation laws of the old days, and draw them all and send them up."

Taizong said, "The tribal troops only charge and dash with their strong horses; are these unorthodox troops? The Han troops only support one another like horns with the strong crossbow; are these orthodox troops?" Li Jing said, "I look at the Sunzi, which says, 'One who uses troops well seeks it in the force of things and does not demand it of men, and so he can choose men and trust to the force.' What is called choosing men is fighting each according to what the tribal people and the Han are good at. The tribal are good with horses, and horses are of use in a quick fight; the Han are good with the crossbow, and the crossbow is of use in a slow fight. This is trusting each of itself to its own force, and it is not a division into unorthodox and orthodox. When I said before that the tribal and the Han must change their calls and change their dress, that is the law by which the unorthodox and the orthodox give birth to one another. There is orthodox in horses too, and unorthodox in crossbows too. How should there be anything fixed?" Taizong said, "Tell me the art of it more closely." Li Jing said, "To show a shape first and make the enemy follow it, that is the art." Taizong said, "I have it. The Sunzi says, 'The utmost in shaping an army is to come to having no shape.' It says again, 'He sets victory before the host by the shape of things, and the host cannot know it.' Is this not what it means?" Li Jing bowed twice and said, "Deep! Your Majesty's holy thought has already thought out more than half."

Taizong said, "Of late the Khitan and the Xi have all come in and submitted, and I have set up the two governorates of Songmo and Raole under the Protector of Anbei. I mean to use Xue Wanche. What of it?" Li Jing said, "Wanche is not the equal of Ashina She'er and Zhishi Sili and Qibi Heli; these are all tribal ministers who know the art of war. I have often talked with them of the hills and streams and roads of Songmo and Raole, and of the mood of the tribes, who is loyal and who defiant, and as far off as ten and more tribes of the Western Regions, all of it clear and to be trusted. When I taught them the laws of formation, there was not one who did not nod his head and bow to the right of it. I hope Your Majesty will give them charge and not doubt them. As for Wanche, he is brave but without plan, and it is hard to give him a charge alone." Taizong laughed and said, "The tribal people are all in your service. The men of old said, 'To attack barbarians with barbarians is the force of China.' You have got it."