Questions and Replies with Li Weigong — The Middle Book唐李問對 卷中

Taizong said, "I have looked at the many books on war, and none goes beyond Sun Wu. Of Sun Wu's thirteen chapters, none goes beyond the empty and the full. In using troops, if you know the force of the empty and the full, there is nothing you cannot win. Now among the generals there are those who can only say, 'Turn your back on the full and strike the empty.' When they come before the enemy, few of them know the empty and the full. It is because they cannot bring the enemy to them, and are instead brought by the enemy. How is it? You shall tell the generals all that is essential in this." Li Jing said, "First teach them the art by which the unorthodox and the orthodox change into each other, and after that speak to them of the shapes of the empty and the full. That is right. Many of the generals do not know how to make the unorthodox the orthodox and the orthodox the unorthodox. How then should they know that the empty is the full and the full is the empty?" Taizong said, "It is said, 'Reckon him, and you know the plans of gain and loss. Stir him, and you know the pattern of his moving and resting. Show him a shape, and you know the ground of his life and death. Test him, and you know where he has enough and where he has not.' Then are the unorthodox and the orthodox with me, and the empty and the full with the enemy?" Li Jing said, "The unorthodox and the orthodox are what bring out the empty and the full of the enemy. When the enemy is full, I must use the orthodox. When the enemy is empty, I must use the unorthodox. If a general does not know the unorthodox and the orthodox, then even though he knows the enemy's empty and full, how can he bring him? Your servant has received the edict. I will only teach the generals the unorthodox and the orthodox, and after that they will know the empty and the full of themselves." Taizong said, "To make the unorthodox the orthodox is this: the enemy takes it for the unorthodox, and I strike with the orthodox. To make the orthodox the unorthodox is this: the enemy takes it for the orthodox, and I strike with the unorthodox. So the enemy's force is always empty and my force is always full. You shall give this method to the generals and make it easy for them to understand." Li Jing said, "A thousand chapters and ten thousand phrases do not go beyond 'Bring the enemy to you and do not be brought to him.' Your servant will teach the generals with this."

Taizong said, "I have set up the Yaochi governorate and placed it under the Protector General of Anxi. How shall the Fan and the Han troops be dealt with?" Li Jing said, "When Heaven gives birth to people, there is no division of Fan and Han at the root. But the land is far off and a barren desert, and they must live by shooting and hunting, and so they are always practiced in fighting. If we soothe them with kindness and good faith, and give them clothing and food all round, they all become Han people. Your Majesty has set up this protectorate. Your servant asks that the Han garrison troops be gathered and placed in the inner lands, to cut down the sending of grain. This is what the men of war call the method of governing strength. Only choose Han officials who know the ways of the Fan well, and let them hold the forts spread out. This is enough to last long. If an alarm comes, then the reserve troops go out."

Taizong said, "What of what the Sunzi calls governing strength?" Li Jing said, "'Wait for the far with the near, wait for the toiling with the rested, wait for the hungry with the full.' This speaks only of the outline of it. One who uses troops well pushes these three meanings out and has six. Wait for the one who comes with a lure. Wait for the hasty with stillness. Wait for the light with weight. Wait for the slack with strictness. Wait for the disordered with order. Wait for the attack with defense. Do the opposite, and strength does not reach so far. Without the art of governing it, how can one come before troops?" Taizong said, "Those who study the Sunzi today only recite the empty words, and few can push its meaning out wide. The method of governing strength should be told to all the generals."

Taizong said, "The old generals and the aged soldiers are almost all gone, and the many armies are newly set up and have not faced an enemy in formation. By what way is it essential to teach them now?" Li Jing said, "Your servant always teaches soldiers in three grades. First the method of the file must be knit together. When the file method is complete, they are handed to the officers of the army. That is one grade. The method of the officers is to make ten out of one and a hundred out of ten. That is one grade. They are handed to the second generals, and the second general gathers the companies of all the officers and brings them together into a formation chart. That is one grade. The great general looks over the teaching of these three grades, and then holds the great review, checks the regulations, tells apart the unorthodox and the orthodox, swears the host and carries out the punishments. If Your Majesty climbs high and looks on, there is nothing you set out that cannot be done."

Taizong said, "There are several schools of the file method. Which one is the essential one?" Li Jing said, "Your servant has looked at the Spring and Autumn Zuoshi zhuan, which says, 'The chariot company first, the file after.' And the Methods of the Sima says, 'Five men make a file.' The Weiliaozi has the chapter Shuwu ling, and the Han regulations had the foot registers and the file tallies. In later ages the tallies and registers were made of paper, and so the old regulation was lost. Your servant weighed the method and changed it from five men to twenty-five men, and from twenty-five men to seventy-five men. This is the regulation of seventy-two foot soldiers and three armored men. If you set aside the chariot and use horse, then twenty-five men answer to eight horses. This is the regulation of the five weapons answering to five. So among the war methods of all the schools, only the file method is the essential one. The small rank is five men, the great rank twenty-five men, the threefold rank seventy-five men, and taking that number five times you get three hundred and seventy-five men. Three hundred men make the orthodox and sixty men make the unorthodox. That is, a hundred and fifty men divide into two orthodox bodies, and thirty men divide into two unorthodox bodies, for the left and the right are alike. What Rangju called 'Five men make a file, and ten files make a company' is followed to this day, and that is the essential of it."

Taizong said, "When I discuss war with Li Ji, he mostly agrees with what you say, only Li Ji does not look into where things come from. The six-flower formation method that you made, out of what art did it come?" Li Jing said, "What your servant took as the root is Zhuge Liang's method of the eight formations. The great formation wraps the small formation, and the great camp wraps the small camp. The corners link like hooks and the bends face each other. The old regulation was like this, and your servant made a chart and followed it. So the outside is drawn square and the inside is ringed round, and it makes the six flowers. That is only the name people give it." Taizong said, "Round within and square without, what does that mean?" Li Jing said, "The square is born of the orthodox, the round is born of the unorthodox. The square is what measures the pace. The round is what joins the turning. And so the number of paces is fixed by the ground, and the marching and joining answer to Heaven. When the paces are fixed and the joining is even, the changes do not fall into disorder. Making six out of the eight formations is the old method of the Marquis Wu." Taizong said, "You draw the square to show the pace, and dot the round to show the men. The pace teaches the method of the feet, and the men teach the method of the hands. When hands and feet are ready, is more than half of it thought out?" Li Jing said, "Wu Qi said, 'Cut apart, they do not come loose. Driven back, they do not scatter.' This is the method of the pace. Teaching soldiers is like setting stones on a board. If there are no lines drawn, what use are the stones? Sun Wu said, 'The ground gives birth to measure (度), measure gives birth to quantity (量), quantity gives birth to number (數), number gives birth to weighing (稱), and weighing gives birth to victory. The winning army is like weighing a zhu (銖) with a yi (鎰), and the losing army like weighing a yi with a zhu.' All of it rises from measuring and reckoning a squared land." Taizong said, "Deep are Sun Wu's words. If you do not measure the far and the near of the ground and the wide and the narrow of its shape, how will you rule your timing?" Li Jing said, "Few common generals can know that timing. 'One who fights well, his force is steep and his timing is short. The force is like a drawn crossbow, and the timing like the release of the trigger.' Your servant has worked at this art. In setting up companies, each stands ten paces from the next. The halted company stands twenty paces behind the company in front. Every other company, one fighting company is set. Going forward, fifty paces make the measure. At one blast of the horn all the companies stand scattered, but not beyond ten paces. At the fourth blast of the horn they set their spears up and kneel. Then the drum beats, and they shout three times and strike three times, from thirty paces to fifty paces, to rule the enemy's changes. The cavalry come out from behind, and they too stop at fifty paces as the moment requires. The front is the orthodox and the rear the unorthodox, and they watch what the enemy does. The drum beats again, and the front is the unorthodox and the rear the orthodox, and again they meet the enemy as he comes, watch for a gap and strike at the empty. The six flowers are on the whole all like this."

Taizong said, "Lord Cao's Xin shu says, 'When you form a formation facing the enemy, you must first set up markers, lead the troops to the markers and form there. If one section takes the enemy and the other sections do not go forward to save it, behead them.' What art is this?" Li Jing said, "To set up markers before the enemy is wrong. This is only the method for the time of teaching battle. Among the ancients, those who used troops well taught the orthodox and did not teach the unorthodox. They drove the host as one drives a flock of sheep, going forward with them and drawing back with them, and the host did not know where it was going. Lord Cao was proud and loved to win, and in that day, among the generals who held to the Xin shu, none dared strike at its faults. And to set up markers before the enemy, is that not late? Your servant has quietly looked at the Pozhen music and dance that Your Majesty made. Four markers are put out in front and eight streamers joined behind, and they turn to the left and the right, and the steps keep to the gongs and the drums, each with its own measure. This is the eight-formation chart itself, the regulation of four heads and eight tails. The people only see the splendor of the music and dance. How should they know that the look of an army is like this?" Taizong said, "Long ago Emperor Gao of Han settled all under Heaven and sang, 'Where shall I get fierce men to guard the four quarters?' The methods of war can be given by meaning but cannot be handed on in words. I made the Pozhen music and dance, and you alone have understood its outward form. Later ages will know that I did not make it lightly." Taizong said, "Are the five flags of the directional colors the orthodox? Are the streamers, the standards, and the breaking of the charge the unorthodox? Dividing and joining make the changes. How many companies is it right to have?" Li Jing said, "Your servant weighs the old methods and uses them. When three companies join, the flags lean on one another and do not cross. When five companies join, two flags cross. When ten companies join, five flags cross. Blow the horn and open the five crossed flags, and the one scatters again into ten. Open the two crossed flags, and the one scatters again into five. Open the flags that lean and do not cross, and the one scatters again into three. When the troops are scattered, joining is the unorthodox. When they are joined, scattering is the unorthodox. Order it three times and repeat it five times, scatter three times and join three times, and then return to the orthodox. Then the four heads and eight tails can be taught. This is what suits the method of companies." Taizong said that it was good.

Taizong said, "Lord Cao has the battle horse, the breaking horse, and the roving horse. To which of these does the cavalry of today answer?" Li Jing said, "Your servant has looked at the Xin shu, which says, 'The battle horse is in front, the breaking horse in the middle, the roving horse behind. In this way each is given a name, and they are divided into three kinds, that is all. In general a company of eight horse answers to twenty-four chariot and foot, and twenty-four horse answer to seventy-two chariot and foot. This is the old regulation. The chariot and the foot are always taught with the orthodox, and the cavalry companies are always taught with the unorthodox.' By Lord Cao, the front and the rear and the middle are divided into three layers, and he says nothing of the two wings. He has taken up one end of it. Later men did not understand the meaning of the three layers, and if the battle horse must go before the breaking horse and the roving horse, how are they to be used? Your servant has used this method often. When I turn the army and shift the formation, the roving horse stands in front, the battle horse stands behind, and the breaking horse divides as the change requires. All of it is Lord Cao's art." Taizong laughed and said, "How many men have been led astray by Lord Cao!"

Taizong said, "Chariot, foot, and horse, these three, are one method. Does the use of them lie in the man?" Li Jing said, "Your servant has looked at the yuli formation in the Spring and Autumn. The chariot company first and the file after, this is chariot and foot with no horse, and it is called the left and right ju (拒), which says only that they ward off, not that they take victory by the unorthodox. When Xun Wu of Jin struck the Di, he set aside the chariots and made ranks on foot. Here cavalry in numbers were the convenient thing, and he strove only for victory by the unorthodox, and not for warding off alone. Your servant has evened out these arts. One horse answers to three men, and chariot and foot are matched to it, and all is mixed into one method, and the use of it lies in the man. How should the enemy know where our chariots will come out, where our horse will come from, where our foot will follow? Now sunk in the nine depths of the earth, now moving in the nine heights of Heaven, such knowing is like a spirit, and it is in Your Majesty alone. How am I enough to know it?"

Taizong said, "The book of Taigong says, 'On ground six hundred paces square, or sixty paces, mark the twelve stations.' What is that art?" Li Jing said, "Mark out the ground a thousand two hundred paces square. It is the shape of a square opened out. Each section takes ground twenty paces square. Across, a man stands every five paces. Lengthwise, a man stands every four paces. In all two thousand five hundred men are divided into the five quarters, and four places are left empty. This is what is called a formation holding a formation within it. When King Wu struck King Zhou of Shang, the tiger guards had charge of three thousand men each, and each formation had six thousand men, a host of thirty thousand in all. This is Taigong's method of marking out the ground."

Taizong said, "How much ground does your six-flower formation mark out?" Li Jing said, "At the great review, ground a thousand two hundred paces square means this. The six formations each take four hundred paces of ground and are divided into two wings, east and west, and twelve hundred paces of empty ground are made the place for teaching battle. Your servant once taught thirty thousand men, five thousand men to each formation. One of them was made the method of the camp, and five were made the shapes of the square, the round, the curved, the straight, and the pointed. Each formation changed five times, and it stopped at twenty-five changes in all."

Taizong said, "What of the five-elements formation?" Li Jing said, "The name was set up at first after the colors of the five quarters, but the square, the round, the curved, the straight, and the pointed come in truth from the shape of the ground. If an army has not practiced these five in ordinary times, how can it come before an enemy? War is a way of deceit, and so the name of the five elements was forced upon it. It was dressed out with the meanings of the arts of number, of what gives birth and what overcomes. In truth the form of an army is like water, which takes its flow from the ground. This is the point of it."

Taizong said, "Li Ji says, 'The female and male (牝牡) and the square and round are the method of ambush.' Was there such a thing in old times?" Li Jing said, "The method of the female and male comes from what is handed down among the common people. In truth it is only the two meanings of yin and yang. Your servant has looked at Fan Li's words: 'Behind, use the yin. In front, use the yang. Let the enemy's yang measure be spent, fill up my yin measure, and take it from him.' This is the marvel of yin and yang among the men of war. Fan Li also said, 'Set the right as the female, add to the left as the male, and follow the way of Heaven by early and late.' Here left and right, early and late differ with the moment, and they lie in the changing of the unorthodox and the orthodox. Left and right are the yin and yang of man. Early and late are the yin and yang of Heaven. The unorthodox and the orthodox are the yin and yang in which Heaven and man change into each other. If you hold fast and do not change, then yin and yang are both thrown away. How then? You would only be keeping to the shapes of female and male. So the one who shows a shape shows the unorthodox to the enemy, and it is not my orthodox. The one who wins strikes the enemy with the orthodox, and it is not my unorthodox. This is called the unorthodox and the orthodox changing into each other. The ambush of troops does not stop at hills and valleys and grass and trees. Hiding and covering are what make an ambush. The orthodox is like a mountain and the unorthodox like thunder, and though the enemy faces us, he cannot measure where our unorthodox and our orthodox are. When it comes to this, what shape is there at all?"

Taizong said, "The formation of the four beasts is likened again to shang, yu, zhi, and jue. What way is that?" Li Jing said, "A way of deceit." Taizong said, "Can it be done away with?" Li Jing said, "Keeping it is what makes it possible to do away with it. If you do away with it and do not use it, the deceit grows worse." Taizong said, "What does that mean?" Li Jing said, "They borrow the formation of the four beasts and the names of heaven, earth, wind, and cloud, and add to them the matching of shang with metal, yu with water, zhi with fire, and jue with wood. All of these are ways of deceit that the men of war have had from of old. Keep them, and no further deceit is added. Do them away, and where will you set out the arts by which the greedy are used and the foolish are used?" After a long while Taizong said, "You should keep this secret and let nothing of it out."

Taizong said, "Harsh punishments and severe laws make men fear me and not fear the enemy. I have great doubts about this. Long ago Emperor Guangwu faced Wang Mang's host of a million with a lone army, and it was not with punishments and laws that he came before them. What was the cause of it?" Li Jing said, "Among the men of war, winning and losing take ten thousand different shapes, and you cannot reason from one case. When Chen Sheng and Wu Guang broke the armies of Qin, how could the punishments and laws of Chen Sheng and Wu Guang have been laid upon Qin? Emperor Guangwu rose because he followed the hearts of men that hated Wang Mang. Still more, Wang Xun and Wang Yi did not understand the methods of war and boasted only of the numbers of their troops, and so they beat themselves. Your servant has looked at the Sunzi, which says, 'If the soldiers are not yet close to you and you punish them, they will not submit. If they are already close and punishment is not carried out, they cannot be used.' These words mean that a general first binds the soldiers to him with love, and only then can he use harsh punishment. If love has not been given and he uses severe law alone, few succeed." Taizong said, "The Shang shu says, 'When awe overcomes love, there is truly success. When love overcomes awe, there is truly no achievement.' What does that mean?" Li Jing said, "Love is set out first and awe after, and it must not be turned around. If awe is laid on first and love comes to save it after, it is of no help to the matter. The Shang shu warns carefully about the end of it. It is not about laying plans at the beginning. So the method of the Sunzi cannot be altered in ten thousand generations."

Taizong said, "When you put down Xiao Xian, all the generals wished to seize the houses of the false ministers and reward the soldiers with them. You alone did not follow them, and you spoke of how Kuai Tong was not put to death under the Han. Soon after, the lands of the Jiang and the Han came over. From this I think of the old saying, 'The civil can make the host cleave to you, the martial can hold the enemy in awe.' Is this said of you?" Li Jing said, "When Emperor Guangwu of Han put down the Red Eyebrows, he went into the camp of the rebels and looked it over, and the rebels said, 'The King of Xiao pushes his red heart into the bellies of men.' This was to reckon first that the hearts of men are not evil at the root. How could he not have weighed it beforehand? Your servant lately struck the Tujue and led a host of Fan and Han a thousand li beyond the frontier, and I never killed a single Yang Gan or beheaded a single Zhuang Jia. I too only pushed out a red sincerity and kept to an utter fairness. Your Majesty listened too well and raised your servant to a place out of his turn. As for the civil and the martial, how should I dare to bear them?"

Taizong said, "Long ago, when Tang Jian went as envoy to the Tujue, you took the moment and struck them and broke them. Men say that you made Tang Jian a dying spy, and I doubt it to this day. How was it?" Jing bowed twice and said, "Your servant and Tang Jian served the ruler shoulder to shoulder. I reckoned that Tang Jian's words could not bring them to submit quietly, and so your servant loosed the troops and struck at that moment. It was to take away a great evil, and I did not look back at a small right. That men say Tang Jian was made a dying spy is not what was in your servant's heart. Look at the chapter on using spies in the Sunzi. It is the lowest of plans. Your servant once wrote at the end of it: water can bear a boat and can also overturn it. Some use spies and make their work succeed, and some lean on spies and fall and are beaten. If a man binds up his hair and serves his ruler, keeps a straight face at court, is loyal and gives his all, is faithful and spends his whole sincerity, then though there be a good spy, how can he be used? Tang Jian was a small right. Why does Your Majesty doubt?" Taizong said, "Truly so. It is said, 'Without benevolence and right one cannot use spies.' How should this be the work of a mean man? The Duke of Zhou destroyed his own kin for a great right. How much more one envoy. It is clear, and there is no doubt." Taizong said, "In war the host is valued and the guest is not, and swiftness is valued and long lasting is not. Why is this?" Li Jing said, "Troops are used because there is no help for it. How should one be the guest and stay long? The Sunzi says, 'Carrying from afar makes the people poor.' This is the harm of being the guest. It also says, 'The levy is not raised twice, the grain is not carried three times.' This is the proof that it cannot go on long. Your servant has weighed the force of host and guest, and there are arts for turning the guest into the host and the host into the guest." Taizong said, "What does that mean?" Li Jing said, "'Take your grain from the enemy.' This turns the guest into the host. 'Make the full man hungry, make the rested man toil.' This turns the host into the guest. So troops are not bound to host or guest, to slow or swift. Only that what is sent out meets the measure, and that is what makes it right." Taizong said, "Did the ancients have such things?" Li Jing said, "Long ago, when Yue struck Wu, the two armies of the left and the right beat their drums and went forward, and Wu divided its troops to hold them. Yue crossed in secret with the center army, without drums, and fell upon the army of Wu and broke it. This is the proof of turning the guest into the host. When Shi Le fought Ji Dan, Ji Dan's troops had come from afar. Shi Le sent Kong Chang out as the van to meet and strike Ji Dan's army. Kong Chang drew back and Ji Dan came in pursuit, and Shi Le struck him from both sides with troops in ambush, and Ji Dan's army was greatly beaten. This is the proof of turning toil into rest. There are many such among the ancients."

Taizong said, "Were the iron caltrops and the horse barriers made by Taigong?" Li Jing said, "They were, but they only ward off the enemy. Troops are valued for bringing the enemy to you, not for warding him off. Taigong's Six Secret Teachings speaks of the gear for guarding and warding, that is all. It is not what is set out for attack and battle."