Questions and Replies with Li Weigong — Lower Book唐李問對 卷下

Taizong said, "Taigong said, 'One who fights chariots and cavalry with foot soldiers must rely on graves and mounds and on rugged ground.' But the Sunzi says, 'The land of heaven's crevices, graves and mounds and old walled towns — troops cannot stay there.' How is this?" Li Jing said, "Using the host lies in oneness of heart, and oneness of heart lies in forbidding omens and putting away doubt. If the commanding general has something he shuns, the feelings of the many waver; and when the feelings of the many waver, the enemy takes the opening and comes. Therefore settling the camp and relying on the ground is only to make things easy for human affairs. Ravines, wells, pits and crevice ground, and places like a pen or a net, are what is not easy for human affairs, so the military houses lead the army away and avoid them, to keep the enemy from taking us. Graves and old walled towns are not utterly rugged places. If we get them it is to our profit, so why should we instead give them up? What Taigong said is the very heart of war." Taizong said, "I think no baleful instrument is worse than arms. If in waging war a thing is truly easy for human affairs, why doubt it for the sake of shunning and taboo? From now on, if any of the generals loses what is fitting through the bonds of yin and yang, you are to warn him earnestly." Li Jing bowed twice and gave thanks, saying, "Your servant has looked into the Wei Liaozi, which says, 'The Yellow Emperor guarded by virtue and struck by punishment. This is called punishment and virtue. It does not mean the offices of heaven and the choosing of days.' Yet with a way of deceit the people can be made to follow it but cannot be made to know it. Common generals of later ages sink into arts and numbers, and so they are often beaten. One cannot fail to warn against it. Your Majesty's sage teaching your servant will at once make known to the generals."

Taizong said, "In war there is dividing and there is gathering, and each is prized when it is fitting. Among the deeds of former ages, who was good at this?" Li Jing said, "Fu Jian led a host of a million and was beaten at the Fei River. This came of troops that could join but could not divide. Wu Han attacked Gongsun Shu and camped apart from his deputy general Liu Shang, twenty li between them. When Shu came to attack Han, Shang came out and they struck together and broke him utterly. This came of troops that divided and could still join. Taigong said, 'What should be divided and is not divided makes a tethered army; what should be gathered and is not gathered makes a lone force.'" Taizong said, "So it is. When Fu Jian first got Wang Meng, he truly knew war, and so he took the Central Plain. When Meng died, Jian was indeed beaten. Is this what is meant by a tethered army? Wu Han was trusted by Emperor Guangwu, who did not command his troops from afar, and so Han did pacify Shu. Is this what is meant by not falling into a lone force? The traces of gain and loss are enough to be a mirror for ten thousand ages."

Taizong said, "I have looked at a thousand chapters and ten thousand lines, and they do not go beyond the one line, 'mislead him in many ways.'" After a long while Li Jing said, "It is truly as Your Majesty says. In using troops at all, if the enemy does not go wrong, how can our army win? It is like a game of go. The two sides are even, and if one stone is misplaced, in the end there is no saving it. Victory and defeat, in old times and now, come mostly from a single mistake. How much more for one who loses many times over."

Taizong said, "Attack and defense, these two things, are they in truth one method? The Sunzi says, 'One who attacks well — the enemy does not know what to defend; one who defends well — the enemy does not know what to attack.' It does not say that when the enemy comes to attack me I also attack him, and that when I defend myself the enemy also defends. When attack and defense are both alike, what is the art of it?" Li Jing said, "In former ages there were many such cases of attacking each other and defending against each other. All of them said, 'Defend and you have too little; attack and you have more than enough,' and so they called too little weakness and more than enough strength. This is to miss the method of attack and defense. Your servant has looked into the Sunzi, which says, 'What cannot be beaten is defense; what can beat is attack.' It means that while the enemy cannot yet be beaten I keep to my own defense, and that I wait until the enemy can be beaten and then attack him. It does not speak in terms of strong and weak. Later men did not understand its sense, and so they defend when they should attack and attack when they should defend. The two tasks being already different, they cannot make the method one." Taizong said, "Truly so. More than enough and too little have made later men confused about strong and weak. They have not at all understood that the method of defense lies in showing the enemy too little, and the method of attack lies in showing the enemy more than enough. Show the enemy too little and the enemy will surely come to attack, and this is the enemy not knowing what to attack. Show the enemy more than enough and the enemy will surely defend himself, and this is the enemy not knowing what to defend. Attack and defense are decided at one stroke, yet the enemy and I are divided into two tasks. If my task succeeds, the enemy's task fails; if the enemy's task succeeds, my task fails. Gain and loss, success and failure, are divided between his side and mine. Attack and defense are one and one only, and he who gets the one wins a hundred battles out of a hundred. Therefore it is said, 'Know him and know yourself, and in a hundred battles you will not be in danger.' Is this what it means to know the one?" Li Jing bowed twice and said, "How deep it is, the method of the sage. Attack is the trigger of defense and defense is the plan of attack, and both come home to victory and nothing else. If in attacking a man does not know defense, and in defending does not know attack, he not only makes two of the task, he also makes two of the office. Though his mouth recites Sun and Wu, if his heart does not ponder the subtle saying that attack and defense are both alike, who can know that it is so?"

Taizong said, "The Methods of the Sima says, 'Though a state be great, if it loves war it will surely perish; though all under heaven be at peace, if war is forgotten there will surely be danger.' Is this too the one way of attack and defense?" Li Jing said, "When has anyone who held a state or a house not studied attack and defense? Attack does not stop at striking his walls and striking his ranks; there must be the art of striking his heart as well. Defense does not stop at making one's ramparts whole and one's ranks firm; one must also guard one's own spirit and wait. Spoken of greatly, it is the way of a ruler; spoken of in small, it is the method of a general. Striking his heart is what is called knowing him; guarding one's own spirit is what is called knowing oneself." Taizong said, "Truly so. Whenever I came to the line of battle I first weighed which was the more watchful, the enemy's heart or my own, and after that I could know him; I examined which was the better ordered, the enemy's spirit or my own, and after that I could know myself. Therefore knowing him and knowing oneself is the great heart of the military houses. If the generals who serve me today cannot know him, yet can truly know themselves, how should any of them lose the advantage?" Li Jing said, "What Sun Wu called 'first making yourself one who cannot be beaten' is knowing oneself, and 'waiting until the enemy can be beaten' is knowing him. He also said, 'That you cannot be beaten rests with yourself; that he can be beaten rests with the enemy.' Your servant does not dare lose this warning for a moment."

Taizong said, "The Sunzi speaks of the method by which the spirit of the three armies can be taken away: 'The morning spirit is keen, the daytime spirit is idle, the evening spirit turns home. One who uses troops well avoids his keen spirit and strikes him when he is idle and turning home.' How is this?" Li Jing said, "That things which hold life and are given blood beat the drum, rouse themselves to fight, and do not look back even at death — it is the spirit that makes them so. Therefore the method of using troops is that one must first examine one's own officers and men and rouse one's own winning spirit, and only then can one strike the enemy. In the four triggers of Wu Qi, the trigger of spirit is put first, and there is no other way than this. If each man can be made to fight of himself, his keenness cannot be withstood. What is called the morning spirit being keen is not spoken with the hours marked off; it takes the beginning and the end of one day as a likeness. If the drum is beaten three times and the enemy neither wanes nor is spent, how can he be made of necessity to grow idle and turn home? Learners commonly take it for empty writing and so are lured by the enemy. If a man truly understands the principle of taking the spirit away, troops can be entrusted to him."

Taizong said, "You once said that Li Ji is able in the methods of war. Can he be used for long? Yet unless I hold him he cannot be used. In days to come, how will the crown prince Zhi hold him?" Li Jing said, "Reckoning for Your Majesty, there is nothing like putting Li Ji out of office and letting the crown prince use him again. Then he will surely be moved by the kindness and plan to repay it. What harm is there in the reason of it?" Taizong said, "Good. I have no doubt."

Taizong said, "If Li Ji were to hold the government of the state together with Zhangsun Wuji, how would it be in days to come?" Li Jing said, "Li Ji is loyal and right, and your servant can stand surety for him. Wuji has the great merit of having helped found the mandate, and Your Majesty, for the closeness of kin, has entrusted him with the office of chief minister. Yet outwardly he humbles himself to men of learning, while inwardly he is truly jealous of the worthy. So Yuchi Jingde broke down his faults to his face and then withdrew, and Hou Junji, resenting that he forgot old ties, fell into rebellion because of it. Both were brought to that by Wuji. Your Majesty has asked your servant, and your servant does not dare avoid saying it." Taizong said, "Do not let this out. I shall think slowly how to deal with it."

Taizong said, "Emperor Gaozu of Han was able to command his commanders. Why then were Han Xin and Peng Yue put to death afterward, and Xiao He thrown into prison?" Li Jing said, "As your servant sees it, neither Liu Bang nor Xiang Yu was a ruler who could command commanders. When Qin was falling, Zhang Liang meant from the first to avenge his own state of Han. Chen Ping and Han Xin both resented that Chu would not use them, and so they borrowed the power of the house of Han to raise themselves, that is all. As for Xiao He, Cao Can, Fan Kuai and Guan Ying, they all came out of men fleeing for their lives. Gaozu leaned on these and got all under heaven. Suppose the heirs of the six states had been set up again: each man would have held to his old lord, and though there were talent for commanding commanders, how would it have been used by the house of Han? Your servant holds that the house of the house of Han got all under heaven through Zhang Liang's plan told with borrowed chopsticks and Xiao He's merit in hauling grain by water. Spoken of in this way, the putting to death of Han Xin and Peng Yue and the not using of Fan Zeng are one and the same matter. Your servant therefore says that neither Liu Bang nor Xiang Yu was a ruler who could command commanders." Taizong said, "Emperor Guangwu restored the house and was able to keep his meritorious officers whole, not burdening them with the work of clerks. Was this then being good at commanding commanders?" Li Jing said, "Guangwu leaned on the frame built before him and found success easy. Yet Wang Mang's power was not less than Xiang Yu's, and Kou Xun and Deng Yu did not surpass Xiao He and Zhang Liang. He alone pushed forward a red heart, used gentle rule, and kept his meritorious officers whole. He is far worthier than Gaozu. If the way of commanding commanders is judged by this, your servant holds that Guangwu had it."

Taizong said, "In old times, when an army was sent out and a general named, they fasted for three days and gave him the great axe, saying, 'From here up to heaven, the general shall command it.' And they gave him the axe, saying, 'From here down to the earth, the general shall command it.' And they pushed the hub of his chariot, saying, 'Advance and withdraw only as the time requires. Once you have gone, in the camp they hear only the general's order and do not hear the ruler's command.' I say this rite has long been abandoned, and now I wish to settle with you the ceremony for sending out a general. How is it?" Li Jing said, "Your servant privately holds that when the sages made this, the full fast in the ancestral shrine was to borrow awe from the spirits, and the giving of the axes and the pushing of the hub were to hand over authority. Now Your Majesty, whenever an army goes out, always discusses it with the high ministers and reports at the shrine before sending it, and so the meeting of the spirits is complete. Whenever you entrust a general, you always let him act as the case requires, and so the lending of authority is weighty. How does this differ from the full fast and the pushing of the hub? All of it meets the old rite and its sense is the same. There is nothing to weigh and settle anew." The emperor said, "Good." Then he ordered the attendants near him to write down these two matters, to be a law for later ages.

Taizong said, "May the arts and numbers of yin and yang be abolished?" Li Jing said, "They may not. War is a way of deceit. Leaning on the arts and numbers of yin and yang, one can put the greedy to use and put the foolish to use. These may not be abolished." Taizong said, "You once said, 'The offices of heaven and the choosing of days — the clear-sighted general does not take them for law, and the benighted general is bound by them.' Then it is right to abolish them as well." Li Jing said, "Of old, Zhou Xin perished on a jiazi day and King Wu rose on a jiazi day. In the offices of heaven and the choosing of days, the jiazi is one and the same. Yin was in disorder and the house of Zhou was well ruled, and their rise and fall differed. Again, Emperor Wu of Song raised his troops on a day of going and perishing (徃亡日), and the officers of the army said it could not be done. But the emperor said, 'I go, and he perishes.' And he did win. Spoken of in this way, it is clear that they may be abolished. Yet when Tian Dan was surrounded by Yan, Dan ordered one man to act as a spirit and bowed and sacrificed to him, and the spirit said, 'Yan can be broken.' Dan then went out with the fire oxen and struck Yan and broke it utterly. This is the way of deceit of the military houses, and the offices of heaven and the choosing of days are just like this." Taizong said, "Tian Dan leaned on a spirit marvel and broke Yan, and Taigong burned the yarrow stalks and the tortoise shell and destroyed Zhou Xin. The two matters are opposite. Why is this?" Li Jing said, "Their trigger is one. The one took it against the grain, the other went along with it. Of old, when Taigong helped King Wu and they came to Muye, they met thunder and rain, and the banners and drums were broken. San Yisheng wished to divine for a lucky sign before going. This was because the host was doubting and afraid, so he had to borrow the divination to ask the spirits. Taigong held that rotten grass and dry bones were not worth asking. Besides, when a subject strikes his ruler, how can it be done twice? Yet if one sees how San Yisheng raised the trigger before and Taigong completed the trigger after, then although going against and going along differ, the principle they reach is the same. When your servant said just now that the arts and numbers may not be abolished, it was to keep that trigger in hold before it has sprouted. When it comes to bringing the work to success, it lies in human affairs and nothing else."

Taizong said, "Among the commanders of today there are only Li Ji, Daozong and Xue Wanche. Setting Daozong aside as a kinsman, who is fit for great use?" Li Jing said, "Your Majesty once said that Li Ji and Daozong use troops so that they neither win greatly nor lose greatly, while Wanche, if he does not win greatly, must lose greatly. Your servant in his folly has pondered Your Majesty's words. Not seeking a great victory and not suffering a great defeat is an army under regulation. Winning greatly at one time and losing greatly at another is bringing off success by luck. Therefore Sun Wu said, 'One who fights well stands on ground where he cannot be beaten and does not let slip the enemy's defeat.' It means that the regulation rests with me."

Taizong said, "When two lines of battle face each other and one wishes to say there shall be no fighting, can it be had?" Li Jing said, "Of old, when the army of Jin attacked Qin, they touched reins and drew back. The Methods of the Sima says, 'Pursue the fleeing, but not far; give rein to the withdrawing, but do not reach them.' Your servant holds that sui (綏) is the cord by which the reins are held. If our troops are already under regulation and the enemy too has his ranks in order, how should either dare fight lightly? So they went out and touched reins, then drew back and did not pursue, each guarding against his own defeat. Sun Wu said, 'Do not strike ranks that stand in full array; do not meet banners drawn up in perfect order.' When two lines are even in body and equal in force, if one acts lightly just once and is taken by the other, he may be greatly beaten. The principle makes it so. Therefore in war there is not fighting and there is fighting of necessity. Not fighting rests with me; fighting of necessity rests with the enemy." Taizong said, "Not fighting rests with me. What does this mean?" Li Jing said, "Sun Wu said, 'If I do not wish to fight, I draw a line on the ground and hold it, and the enemy cannot fight with me, because I turn him from where he is going.' If the enemy has a man of worth, then in the space of touching reins nothing can be plotted. Therefore it is said that not fighting rests with me. As for fighting of necessity resting with the enemy, Sun Wu said, 'One who moves the enemy well shows him a form, and the enemy will surely follow it; gives him something, and the enemy will surely take it. He moves him with profit and waits for him with the root.' If the enemy has no man of worth, he will surely come and fight, and I can take him and break him. Therefore it is said that fighting of necessity rests with the enemy."

Taizong said, "How deep it is, an army under regulation. Get its method and you flourish; lose its method and you perish. Compile for me an account of those in the ages past who were good at regulation, and present it with the charts complete. I shall choose what is fine and subtle in it and hand it down to later ages." Li Jing said, "The two battle charts of the Yellow Emperor and Taigong that your servant presented before, together with the Methods of the Sima and Zhuge Liang's method of the unorthodox and the orthodox, are already fine and full. Of the famous generals of the ages, many used one or two of these and brought off success. Only, the historians have seldom been men who knew war, and they could not record the real traces of it. How should your servant not take up the edict? I shall compile it and report."

Taizong said, "In the methods of war, which is deepest?" Li Jing said, "Your servant has always divided them into three grades, so that the learner may come to them by degrees. The first is the Way, the second is heaven and earth, the third is the general's law. The saying of the Way is most subtle and most deep; what the Book of Changes calls 'clear-sighted and wise, godlike in arms and yet not killing' is this. The saying of heaven is yin and yang, and the saying of earth is the rugged and the easy. One who uses troops well can take the yang by the yin and strike the easy from the rugged; what the Mengzi calls 'the season of heaven and the profit of earth' is this. The saying of the general's law lies in entrusting men and sharpening weapons; what the Three Strategies calls 'he who wins men of worth flourishes' and what the Guanzi calls 'weapons must be firm and sharp' are this." Taizong said, "So it is. I hold that to bend another's troops without fighting is the highest, to win a hundred battles out of a hundred is the middle, and to dig the moat deep and raise the rampart high and guard oneself is the lowest. Measured by this, the book Sun Wu wrote has all three grades complete." Li Jing said, "Looking at their writings and tracing their deeds, one can indeed tell them apart. Zhang Liang, Fan Li and Sun Wu slipped free and drew away high, and no one knew where they went. Without knowing the Way, how could they be like that? Yue Yi, Guan Zhong and Zhuge Liang fought and always won, defended and were always firm. Without examining the season of heaven and the profit of earth, how could they be like that? Next after them, Wang Meng kept Qin whole and Xie An guarded Jin. Without entrusting generals and choosing men of ability, and repairing their defenses to make themselves firm, how could they be like that? Therefore in the study of war one must go first from the lowest to the middle, and from the middle to the highest, and then it deepens by degrees. Otherwise a man hands down empty words and merely recites them by rote, and there is nothing to take from it." Taizong said, "The Daoists shun a house that has been generals for three generations. It may not be passed on rashly, and it may not be left unpassed. Be careful of it." Li Jing bowed twice and went out, and passed on the whole of the book to Li Ji.